Site Visit with John Grove

Monday Site Visit with John Grove

Agenda:

1.  10 AM Site visit to see how/what system could be implemented

2. Rainwater catchment/ drainage: what is the water possibilities of  the site

3. Site visit at Elkstone Farm

PS did anyone see the latest homelink magazine?

Great catchment system idea on page 32

Please find Jeff's corrections for the minutes below:

Overall Energy Requirements

Panels producing 6 kW can be placed on the master bedroom roof,

Panels with 2-axis tracking can improve energy production by 40%.  Panels with 1-axis tracking can improve energy production by 30%.

Green House Energy requirements:

Very little lighting should be used

Meeting Minutes:05.28.09

Meeting minutes: May 28, 2009

Participants: Kevin and Amy Daly, Jeff Gerber, Brent, Hans, Emmanuelle, Lisa, Michael, Jerome, and Susan Holland

Length: 1.5 hours

 

Summary of Discussion:

 

Overall Energy Requirements

 

Brent: According to the initial energy needs study, the home and green house require 16kw?  Panels producing 15 kW can be placed on the master bedroom roof, leaving 5kw extra, as 20 KW is what we can produce

Panels with 2-axis tracking can improve energy production by 30%. However, present a few concerns including maintenance issues during freezing temperatures.

 The PV system will also have to revolve around the geothermal needs.  However

We cannot exceed 20 KW, which is the maximum allowance for 2 residences. It will require 2 inverters and 2 meters to be approved by Jim Chappell.

 The solar system can be designed so that a string can be attached to later add a series of panels.

 The current load estimate does not include electricity to be used for a car.

 Batteries could be installed in order to utilize excess instead of selling back excess of a third of the cost. However batteries require a lot of maintenance and don’t last very long (new ones have 8-10 years warranty). Also it would require a room or a big box within a heated room (the box should be insulated and vented).  With a propane generator and the grid has a back up, batteries might not be necessary.

 Since natural gas and electricity cost about the same, an electric boiler might be a better choice, allow for an offset down the road.

The boilers currently present in the house are 83% efficient, if they will only be acting as a back up, there isn’t a great need to change now, however replacing the 2 existing boilers by very efficient small boiler  that is 95% efficient would provide space for the geothermal/solar mechanical system. 

 Typically a boiler as 5 heat exchange stages, improving its efficiency with each stage, and thus allowing for up to 10% reduction in operating cost by switching to amore efficient boilers  (a new boiler costs about $4,000).If you sell back what you have used you only sell a third as the law stands now.

 

 

 

Green House Energy requirements:

 

If the green house underground heating system is not sufficient how do we supplement?

Jerome thinks that the fan and automated venting would be the only use of electricity necessary in the green house  (400-500w maximum). 2 or 3 fans will be necessary, requiring about 120 watts each. 

Very little lightening should be used in order not confuse the natural photosynthesis intake pattern of the plants. 

A couple of small 24-volt controls for operating awning windows will be necessary (operating with a rod, one motor can link several windows to open and close simultaneously).

Michael mentioned that a thermostat operating insulated shades might also be needed.

Jerome thinks that 2 circulations fans might be needed to pump the hot air.  Although, the water tank in the green house will also help keep the temperature more constant.

If grown, hydroponics will not require much energy.

 A water catchment system might also require energy for a pump.

 Someone should be present most of the time to check on the green house at least for the first year.   The green house will not work on 100% on its own.

 Every control increases cost, and might break down, should try to keep simple systems.

 Michael: Brings cooler air in summer time and back up heat in the winter. Nighttime might require additional back up

 Jeff: Jerome is talking about air circulation within the green house, no additional penetrations or exhaust.

 Fresh air is not needed for the propagation of plants within a close system. Jerome never has had problems: You don’t have to worry that the plants would suffocate, circulating is more important. Remember Plants Produce oxygen and use CO2

 

Solar thermal/Geothermal

 

We might use only 4 solar geothermal panels, the best location for the panels for solar thermal? If we go with Geothermal do we need the solar thermal?

 Brent: Potential yes, for the dump load of the shower? Heat pump max depending- 125degree water is the maximum-.  

 Lisa: What about using Gas on demand system. Brent says that does not work well above 5,000feet.  Hard to get 8 degree rise. Rinnai Brand a good choice. Works Well many Place. Hans thinks it is worth researching

 Net Zero is the goal? Will not getting rid of gas stove. Hot water usage 20 gallon of water per day/per person. 

 Hot water for 6 people (including a person leaving in the green house)

 We need a system that takes the water above 120degrees.

 4 parts to total load:

Envelope (70 and 68) most house is usually ET at 64

Ventilation

Hot water

Miscellaneous heating load

 

During its; initial load estimate, Brent got giant numbers—20%off top, after taking out, sizing for peak, maximum load now 200,00btu per hour

 How much diversity can I get away with, slice of the equipment and still make it the duration load.  10 well 350 feet deep will cover 100%, which we have room for.

 Hans went to look at solar system he put in, asked about well drillers, does not know exactly about pricing, mechanical guy, don’t’ have own in house drilling Adrienne Major Heating Steamboat. They do functional performance testing, monitor the drillers.

 Will be able to take advantage of price reduction for the drilling going with Major.

 Notes:

John Grove will come on Monday at 10:00am on Monday. Emmanuelle met with Mike Zopf who is open to a whole water system gray/black water system; Mike will be contacting john to talk about specific technical aspects.

 

Note: Let’s try to use the blog more often for conversations and keep conference

 

Water catchment systems: Lisa had suppliers that make metric systems 

 

Pilot project 10 projects in Colorado need to state representative for house under 3,000squre feet.

 Lisa mentioned systems being used in Vail using grey water for toilets.

 

 

 

 

 

Action Items:

 

1.Susan will research durable tracking equipment.  (E.g. installations in the Stagecoach area and in the Aspen area through Solar Energy International and Sun Sense (Scott Ely) in Carbondale.

 

2.Break out session between Michael, Jerome and Lisa to plan for the venting system, including the eastern, upper and southern vents.

 

3.Everyone needs to develop an accurate inventory of every piece of equipment to be used in conjunction with the energy consumption, including schedules of usage –peaks and lows-, and wattages.

 

4.Lisa will research the energy requirement necessary for a hydroponic system.

 

5.Hans, Emmanuelle and Lisa will do a little more research electric on-demand water showers.

 

6.Jerome, Lisa and Michael will start developing bed design and planting plans for Jeff to review and put into the model in order to assure that no structures need to be moved – could move the columns if needed-.

 

7.Mike will post the link to the new legislation and research permit for water catchment.

 

8.Emmanuelle will look at a way to send a notification to everyone when someone makes a new post on the blog.

 

9. Lisa will research water catchment and development in Vail

 

10. John grove will be in town Monday @ 10 AM

11. Lisa and emmanuelle will provide a plan by June 15th for enhancing  portions the landscape

 

Biomimicry

Hi all
watch the video.... it may be an answer for scaling in the on demand water systems?? TPA
and this is a great open source site to exchange and gain new information!
have fun!
http://www.asknature.org/article/view/what_is_biomimicry

Please find a correction from Jeff of the last meeting minutes below:

Posting Reads:

"If geothermal is added later on, the redundancy of the system become a problem for maintenance and getting rid of heat in summer time."

Correction:

"Solar thermal also has additional limitations of higher maintenance potential and overheating when demand is low."

Meeting minutes: 05.18.09

Participants: Kevin, Amy, Jeff, Hans, Brent, Michael, Jerome, Emmanuelle, and Lisa

Time:8:30 am -9:45 am

Summary of Discussion:

Energy:

Solar/geothermal:

Sun power Panels are 230 watts the others are???

Solar glass panels on green house would need to be customized to a trapezoid shape and therefore be expensive.  There is no other place on house to put other panels either than on the master bedroom roof and the spot determined by Brent on the side of house.

With some improvements to make the existing house 10 to 20% more efficient, 15kw should be sufficient to run the house, and provide for 5% excess (e.g. pumping for geothermal). By law, the maximum is 20kw, otherwise you we have to become a power distributor.  The energy estimates do not take into consideration the retrofit of a more efficient boiler, which could possibly cut the heat consumption down 12%.

Would be great to have solar collectors to supplements hot water and heating as well

Geothermal would be ideal, but solar thermal might be more cost effective for now. Solar thermal would provide domestic hot water, but with a system 200, 000 btu (20 solar panels) would only cover up to 70% of the radiant heat needs, which would not provide a net zero solution. If geothermal is added later on, the redundancy of the system become a problem for maintenance and getting rid of heat in summer time.

Need to decide on the geothermal option and drill a test hole.  An estimate of 8 to 12 holes would cost about $40,000, and will  determine the final sizing need to be made, the site might be as good as a thermo conductivity of 1.

Price of geo driller are going down, see cost of 10-20 dollars a foot. Horizontal is about the same cost that a vertical loop field now. Cheapest route is to keep hole on the flat and use vertical wells, which gives better conductivity.

Scheme F:

Deck of master bedroom:

Would a transparent porch - with glass or polycarbonate floor- porch of the master on the east side –small: 4 by 6-8’- be too much of a sun lost? Because of the  overhang, early morning sun in the winter would be  lost is there you will lost . A deck on the west would work best.

3 solutions:

1.     cover deck to the south

2.     carving out on the west wall of the master, moving master bedroom space into light monitor on the east

3.     one large opening instead of the 3 single opening with rap around deck a feeling of outside in the master.

Wainscoat inside green house on existing wall should be changed to  all rock would create more thermal mass.

Snow accumulation on south side of green house:

Brent has not included radiant snow mount in front of greenhouse in his estimations. The amount of heat that is required to melt snow from underneath is “exhortative”. Could you use energy to melt only when needed, but could still be  looking at 100-125 btu.

The stone on the bottom section of the green house would heat the snow naturally from radiance. Gerome thinks that 3feet wall should be sufficient. Michael suggested that zinc or copper would absorb sun faster and more efficiently than rock. But usually when snow builds up there is no sun.

jerome suggested that some of south glazing be equipped with a hoper window, could open in to get ventilation instead of pushing snow if needed?

jerome, Michael and Lisa can do shadow studies to see what we can grow on floor panels, and determine if semi transparent solar panels would be of benefit to the green house.  They will start developing a planting floor plant for the green house.

Action Steps:

1.     Call with John Grove Weds 11am MST to discuss grey water options

2.     Hans and Kevin to go to Basalt to see Jerome’s greenhouse

3.     Evo and kyle o review landscape

4.     Jeff, Jerome, lisa to begin looking at floor plan

5.     Brent, Kevin and Jeff to continue work on energy analysis

Agenda

Agenda: 05.18.09

1. Scheme F

2. Misc Items

Note:

Meeting with John Grove schedule for 11 am MST on Weds may 20th, 2009

New Postings

Please view the latest postings of Scheme "F".  The South wall has been lowered to increase the sloped greenhouse glazing to a 4/12 pitch (This wall is now approx. 10' high from the greenhouse ground level.)  The East master roof overhang has been reduced by the width of one solar panel since it does not need to fully cover the light monitor below (There are now 24 PV panels on the roof).  The structural supports of the greenhouse and the West master wall have been coordinated with each other and the clerestory venting.  The SouthEast greenhouse stone wall has been extended to allow for more space between the existing driveway and the boulder retaining wall.

Jeff

Scheme "F" Revision

Following some design comments from Michael & Jerome, I have revised and posted a new NorthEast perspective of Scheme "F".  This new perspective shows a better insulated light monitor on the East side that still provides daylighting and cross venting to the Eastern greenhouse space below.  While it is still covered by the roof above, it provides more "freeboard" (snow storage) for the vented windows to the adjacent driveway.  This feature has also been reduced in size from 6' deep to 4' deep and just under 12' wide.

Site Visit With Jerome

Daly Project Team,

This e-mail is an attempt to share thoughts from my site visit with Jerome last Thursday:

During my site visit with Jerome, it became clear to me that we needed to make a conscious choice to prioritize our project goals and let these priorities be reflected in our massing.  All schemes to this day had attempted to include all our goals (new master suite, exterior master green roof, greenhouse, art room connection, and exterior art space) with equal importance.  However, including them all seemed to sacrifice the adequate functionality of the greenhouse.  Additionally, with the East area of the greenhouse built in to the hillside, it also became obvious that the Western extension piece from Scheme "B" was some of the most valuable greenhouse space on the site with opportunities for early middle and late day sun.  It also became clear that Western extension needed to be re-oriented to it's optimal solar South.  While discussing alternatives that would provide the ultimate greenhouse (detached dome greenhouse and single sloping shed with no upper living space), Jerome and I reasoned that we first needed to try a scheme that attempted the following:

1. Maximize the greenhouse potential and provide as much sloped Southern sloped glazing as possible

2. Block the direct Western sun

3. Relocate the upper Master Suite space as far to the East as possible while minimizing it's footprint

4. Remove the Master Suite exterior space; Any space allocated to this function would directly compromise the greenhouse

5. Explore the Master roof form for it's renewable energy potential

A scheme that successfully provided the above would allow us to evaluate our best configuration for a greenhouse while retaining the primary functional pieces of our program.  Is is with this thinking that I embarked on Scheme "F" now posted on the Daly drawing site.

Additional thoughts:

While on site with Jerome, we discussed for some time the elevation of the greenhouse and the snow pack at the foot of the South wall.  In our latest plan, the greenhouse is sunken three feet from existing grade.  The exterior space around the greenhouse would also need to be regraded down three feet.  This three foot drop is critical to the volume of the greenhouse and it's opportunity for sun exposure.  Jerome added to this discussion that in addition to the three foot drop, the mechanical system would need to be trenched down another three feet.  Another option would be to leave the greenhouse at existing grade and raise the level of the master three feet.  While this would minimize the excavation of the greenhouse site and provide more attainable Southern snow storage space, it would create an awkward three foot level change from the Master bath/closet to the Master bedroom.  Upon reflection, I left Scheme "F" with the greenhouse dropped three feet.  While open for discussion, I think that the 3 ft. level change in the Master would be a much greater inconvenience and that the extra excavation was warranted.  The snow storage to the South is something we will have to discuss.  In our experience, with a mass wall on the south side, there is a natural radiant vertical face that aids in the melting process.  However, the sloped glazing in Scheme "F" will shed and provide significant additional storage requirements.

Your comments on all of the above are greatly appreciated!

Jeff

Daly Project Team,

Please view the Daly drawing web site for new postings.  The new plans and perspectives are called Scheme "F".  The focus of scheme "F" is the greenhouse and maximizing the amount of sloped glazing available to it.  The upper level space is pushed as far East as possible and minimized.  On the roof of the master bedroom, I have placed 27 PV SunPower panels each with 230 watts.  This equates to around 6.2 kW!

Talk to you tomorrow!

Jeff

Agenda: 05.07.09

Meeting Agenda:

Introductions:

1. Look at option D

2. Look at option E

3. Establish criteria and direction for Design

4. Landscape maintenance

5. misc items

This call must be completed by 9:30 sharp as jerome, lisa and emmanuelle have another call @ 10 am

Option E

hi

 here is another idea.. sorry for the poor quality photos from my i phone:) i was thinking of ideas of how to simplfy, provide more light to the green house and solve roof shed issue!!!

we could have a green roof that sheds toward the driveway.. thus cleaning all the collected rain water, providing visual interest when you drive up to the house.

 on the south and west side i see supporting upper master with steel beams inside the green house directly under the master, thus letting maximum lighting from the south and being able to use shed framing for greenhouse. i also see a larger porch/ green patio area off of master tothe west with walk out toward beautiful views and useable safe space 7-9 months of year. Also the extension provides covered out door area below that ties in with a opening from the playroom and from the greenhouse to another outdoor patio. The style is different but still works with the house and maximizes all of the benefits and minimizes roof shed issues and mixed material costs. i was inspired by the new library( bud werner side) in town roof lines that lean at an angle and reference the traditional just orientated differently.

Scheme "D"

Daly Project Team,

Please visit the Daly drawing posting site (Project 8).  As a result of Michael's comments, which we will discuss during tomorrow's conf. call, I have posted Scheme "D".  This scheme attempts to add a two story volume in the greenhouse for a taller tree element and add more light.  The master bedroom would have a small balcony that looked into this space.

Jeff

Meeting Minutes from 4/30/09

Date: 4/30/09

Participants:  Kevin and Amy Daly,Jeff Gerber, Hans Berend, Emmanuelle Vital and Lisa Benjamin

Subject: 3 options for attached green house

Summary of Discussion:

The purpose of the 3 option idea exercise was to get a sense of the inside and outside space as well as look at cost effectiveness

Option C: 1250 sq/ft this was the east orientation with the most greenhouse space and most square footage. this option had the least amount of east light and created some issues for the western addition such as screening the intense sun. This had the option for the largest green roof. 

option B: 1250 sq/ft sloped glazing, less green roof, south facing, gabel orientated North South

Option A: 1000 sq/ft This options creates more inside/ outside space has more sloped glazing and also has the protected porch. gabel north south

we also discussed  the addition and how it relates to the existing structure and blending the green house in.  The points well taken were creating a well built long lasting structure, utilizing more modern materials such as the poly carbonate and copper shingles and how the roof line feels when you approach the house from the drive.

we discussed some advantages and disadvantages of poly carbonate glazing vs glass and will look into this. We also discussed maximizing the light and having michael from ecosystems design review the design to make sure there is enough light for production.

We also discussed snow and water management on the roofs and surrounding landscape that will protect the new structure. Heat tape and gutters are advised.

Hans viewed the site with Bud the excavator and located 2 sites for water catchment. They discussed under cover drainage and french drain systems as well as utilizing concrete tanks( or the undersized septic tank). They also discussed surface collection as well as trenching.

The floor plan was discussed and the use  and function of every space was important.  The upper additional bathroom was discussed and hans will provide several estimates for options. Also the downstairs floor plan was also discussed. Amy liked the idea of opening up the space for indoor outdoor classroom area.

Action Items:

1. Jeff will coordinate a meeting with michael and evo to discuss design and production

2. Hans will provide bids on bathroom options

3. Evo will post chicken run ideas/fence ideas for animals and look into covenants

next meeting Thursday May 7th 8:30 am

Daly Project Team,

I just posted a new drawing showing a section through the greenhouse.

Jeff